tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9078157424531850345.post3454658118213090778..comments2024-03-24T02:03:40.254-07:00Comments on Chasin' Jesus: Just-Civil-Total... War & Civic ReligionUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9078157424531850345.post-4266307689564982342013-07-28T15:16:45.027-07:002013-07-28T15:16:45.027-07:00@ Red Neckers:
You just have to do it, period. S...@ Red Neckers:<br /><br />You just have to do it, period. Sometimes we think about these things for a long time, but when it comes time, just do it. There are times when it WON'T make you popular, but....Scott Nearing, born upper-middle class in 1883, described his life as a "series of secessions" from what was the "right" and "proper" thing to do in society at the time. and it ain't easy sometimes...we all like to be liked and have friends.Michael Andersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10393989496568662639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9078157424531850345.post-3240018577702254472013-07-09T21:43:28.752-07:002013-07-09T21:43:28.752-07:00After all, "“The purpose of a writer is to ke...After all, "“The purpose of a writer is to keep civilization from destroying itself.” -Albert Camus<br />People are having to rewrite what has already been written a thousand times.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15967317427917737883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9078157424531850345.post-59004419759522521722013-07-09T21:30:38.303-07:002013-07-09T21:30:38.303-07:00You are lucky, Mike. I grew up in small town Kans...You are lucky, Mike. I grew up in small town Kansas and was under the impression that everything was right. By following my intuition, I was wrong. Then again, I joined in peace (well, overtly it was peace) time. How would you recommend we pass on those lessons that we learn from times of overt war to the generations that will know the short lulls of peace? This is something that concerns me. We have to keep relearning the same lessons because the torch never gets passed. There is no "battle handoff" between generations regarding the horrible lessons we learn about invasion, occupation, and empire.<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15967317427917737883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9078157424531850345.post-87924357349318065112013-07-08T13:21:26.577-07:002013-07-08T13:21:26.577-07:00@ Red Neckers:
I fought conscription and got out ...@ Red Neckers:<br /><br />I fought conscription and got out legally, and according to procedure, with a physical ailment (back problem). It was mild at the time, and with attention over the years, is still mild. That would have been irrevocably changed by the conditions of BT & combat (which I was destined for, having a 1968 lottery number of 24 & classified 1-A @ pre-induction physical).<br /><br />For the record, I an not sure if this protocol (Final Medical Review) exists today.<br /><br />For a few years, in the 60's, we had in this country something resembling a free press. Every night with my dinner, while in high school, I watched the unending parade of death & destruction from Vietnam. Growing up drowsing in a small industrial town in SW Oregon (now burnt out like the rust belt towns in the Midwest and East), I had not thought of much beyond what was presented to me by family and peers. To quote from one of Christopher Moore's books, a life of work in a mill, "beer, bowling, and a series of financed Fords". But I knew something was wrong, and went with my intuition. I learned more later.<br /><br />@ Stan:<br /><br />An illuminating picture in your post was the one on the (rather intense) fear of "Negro Rule" by Southerners. So---"equality" means "rule" by the "other"?? They must've known in their bones that the apartheid they created would quite possibly have the power to inspire an equal and opposite reaction. <br /><br />Ain't no Love there...Michael Andersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10393989496568662639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9078157424531850345.post-10667422886148759522013-07-08T10:09:56.174-07:002013-07-08T10:09:56.174-07:00Is it so? It is, in so much as there are certainl...Is it so? It is, in so much as there are certainly differences between people, although I would say that those differences are primarily superficial. I would argue that we have more in common than we do different. My argument stating "But are they different?" was errant. Throughout the rest of my argument I obviously recognized that there were differences between people and between groups of people and I contradicted myself. Perhaps I should have asked the question, "But are they as different as we think they are?" and then brought attention to the common threads of humanity that can be seen across cultural, religious, racial, and socioeconomic divides. People will generally react similarly to one another, given certain situations, regardless of culture. You don't have to go to another country to experience these differences or similarities. In many cases, all you have to do is drive across town. What I'm saying is that these differences can be and are manipulated and exploited for other people's gain. You don't have to see many 1940's depictions of Japanese people or listen to very many running cadences to understand that. <br /><br />Money has no value until one is ascribed to it. That said, I suppose it's not completely metaphorical. It's made out of paper. You could burn it, as has been done for survival in desperate situations, thereby giving it some innate value. There have been many metaphors that have been applied with great material force. Words themselves are given a value, carry weight and power, and have even started wars. We wouldn't write books, or burn them, if metaphors provided no material force. I suppose "Man cannot live on bread alone," has an application even here. <br /><br />Regarding nations, the fact that large amounts of people imagine them and are willing to enforce their policies, force being the root of the word, doesn't mean that they aren't imaginary. There is no real boundary between Canada and the United States. No real boundary between say, New Mexico and Arizona. No boundary between counties, cities, or your property and your neighbors, barring the presence of a fence or river. So, are those boundaries there? Only in the sense that we, as a group, choose to recognize them. It's like natural rights. Everyone is born with them. It's just that some people allow others to exercise them and some don't. My girlfriend and three children live in England. I live in the United States. I understand very well the hoops through which we have to jump to jump from one hunk of rock that someone has foolishly claimed ownership of to another. Ownership itself is imaginary. The land that we name (ascribe a word to) the United States has only been "The United States" for a very short time. And it will only be so for a short while longer. Our claim of ownership of it changes it in no way, whatsoever, and is indeed, not only imaginary in a sense, but in fact. They are materially forced and enforced, but they are no more real than words and only attain a value that can be popularly recognized. Nations themselves choose to recognize or not recognize each other.<br /><br />" National boundaries are not evident when we view the Earth from space. Fanatical ethnic or religious or national chauvinisms are a little difficult to maintain when we see our planet as a fragile blue crescent fading to become an inconspicuous point of light against the bastion and citadel of the stars."<br /><br />-Carl Sagan <br /><br />So yes, these things are materially enforced but they are nonetheless imaginary. <br /><br />Cheers, sir. I am appreciative of the discussion and I hope you have a fine day. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15967317427917737883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9078157424531850345.post-56924312122171184312013-07-08T05:17:47.853-07:002013-07-08T05:17:47.853-07:00I don't think I've made the claim that her...I don't think I've made the claim that here are no differences between people, or peoples, or that I've claimed there is no occasion to describe "us" and "them." What Jesus taught, by his own example, is that these boundaries are permeable by love. Difference doesn't have to correspond to hierarchy.<br /><br />I've been to Haiti 21 times, for example, and I can assure you that Haitian peasants, for example, are dramatically different from middle-class Americans. In certain discursive contexts, it is absolutely appropriate for this "blan" to refer to Haitian peasants as "them," and for a "paysan" to refer to my people as "them." These can be valid descriptive categories as long as we aren't concealing our own standpoints.<br /><br />Money may be a metaphor (though I can see what's in my wallet, touch it), but I can apply it with great material force. As Hornborg said, general purpose money is what allows rain forests to be traded for Coca-Cola. And nation may be imaginary in some sense, but when I fly into the US, I have to pass through a phalanx of armed people, present documents, and understand that upon setting foot within a geographical boundary, I am subject to a particular set of laws that, again, are materially enforced (by people with guns, responding to a vast managerial apparatus comprised of hundreds of thousands of people).<br /><br />N'est–ce pas?Stanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06215820765679948105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9078157424531850345.post-83762167166656108602013-07-08T00:42:54.373-07:002013-07-08T00:42:54.373-07:00Very well written. I am glad to hear you compare ...Very well written. I am glad to hear you compare nationalism with religious faith. It is not something that is frequently done in modern America. But that's what nationalism is. Teresa, I would like to tie that in with what you are asking, regarding reconciling the "us vs. them" mentality that is inherent in religion. "Us vs. them," as a concept, doesn't require you to see yourself as being "good" and someone else as being "evil." You only have to see the "them" as being different, as in not belonging to your group or your label. You see yourself as being "saved" and them as being "unsaved" or at least "not yet saved" in much the same way that you see yourself as being "American," assuming that you are American, and the other person as being "not American." Perhaps they're British and this even happens to be a time when you are told to think that British people are okay. Even friends. Bear in mind, though, that that difference can be exploited. The word "them" or the word "unsaved/British" can be easily manipulated so that you see them as the opposing team if not outright the "evil bad people." Of course they're truly not the "evil bad people," but due to propaganda and perhaps even circumstances, your perception has changed. And it's all because you started off seeing them as different. But are they different? Is nationalism not a figment of the imagination? For that matter, is nation not a figment of man's collective imagination and the only thing that gives it any semblance of reality is that people are willing to enforce it? For my own part, I say the same of religion, but I am not here to discuss religion, although I don't claim one. I guess by me not claiming one I am using a bit of the "us vs. them" mentality as I am entertaining a false division but there is no need to worry. I will not let it be exploited were someone to want me to go to war with you. You see, there has never been a religious war. All wars have been about power. Even economic wars. Money is simply a metaphor for power and control. Religion, nation, flag, race, sexuality, even socioeconomic status... those are all merely ways in which we pick the teams. I am not trying to speak for Mr. Goff, but I talk to people all the time about this very concept, and this is the way it makes sense to me.<br /><br />Michael, you are completely justified in skipping out of the draft in 1971. "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." -Thomas Jefferson<br /><br />For my own part, I wish I had seen things as correctly and maturely as you likely had in your youth. As of last week I have been enlisted for 17 years as I commit this minor act of treason with a dash of "Conduct Detrimental to the Good Order and Discipline of the Unit." Cheers. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15967317427917737883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9078157424531850345.post-91929050387917574882013-07-03T09:51:44.382-07:002013-07-03T09:51:44.382-07:00Thanks, Stan...once again, you have given me justi...Thanks, Stan...once again, you have given me justification that resisting the draft in 1971 was the proper course of action. It's taken a bit longer to clear the other baggage, but that's a lifetime project, eh?Michael Andersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10393989496568662639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9078157424531850345.post-48493525106452968092013-07-03T06:26:03.955-07:002013-07-03T06:26:03.955-07:00I'm also immensely intrigued by your personal ...I'm also immensely intrigued by your personal journey, Stan. I've followed you for some years on Feral Scholar, read your book Sex and War. Spoke to you about Detroit and gardening/farming some months ago.<br /><br />I'm also am a Catholic, and I'm having a dickens of a time reconciling the us vs. them theology inherent in much of religion. I take my Christianity very seriously. Nowhere do I find Our Lord distinguishing who my neighbor is. I am in no way good and they are evil. The idea or concept of 'chosen-ness' is really difficult to understand ... theologically. <br /><br />Anyway, this new blog of yours is great. I look forward to each of your Posts. I walk away a better person, if only because you've set my little grey cells to work.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15547408260337394602noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9078157424531850345.post-52491148326889316352013-07-02T21:17:46.878-07:002013-07-02T21:17:46.878-07:00Thanks for the context, Stan. For want it's wo...Thanks for the context, Stan. For want it's worth, your post haunted me today and I typed up a few remarks on my own blog: http://restorativetheology.blogspot.com/2013/07/technology-and-impossibility-of-just-war.htmlBrian G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/15369514158451008463noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9078157424531850345.post-11884437975903100612013-07-02T17:44:47.972-07:002013-07-02T17:44:47.972-07:00Thank you, Brian. My surname is Goff, and my back...Thank you, Brian. My surname is Goff, and my background is not academic. I am 61, be 62 in November, and I wasn't even baptized until I was 56 years old. I have several past phases, including a career in the military, followed by a career as a socialist, prior to my conversion. People at Duke University had a real impact on me (I lived in Raleigh, 20 minutes from Duke), esp my pastor Greg Moore there, who introduced me to Stanley Hauerwas and Amy Lura Hall. I write some, more than just blogs, including a few books that seem odd to me now, a few years later. What I do have kind of an angle on is militarism - made it kind of a feral scholarly project for he last few years, and gender, too, because I can't tease militarism and masculinity apart yet - and it fits my own experience. I really appreciate your generous words, and thank you for taking the time to comment here; it's kind of a new blog.Stanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06215820765679948105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9078157424531850345.post-4902345569558344302013-07-02T12:59:47.793-07:002013-07-02T12:59:47.793-07:00Stan, I was turned onto this post from an editor a...Stan, I was turned onto this post from an editor at the journal, Political Theology, and I'm stunned at what you've done here. Incredible work! - What is your last name? Where are you/have you studied? - You've done some great work here and I'd like to see it make the rounds in the theological social media circles I run in.<br /><br />Many thanks for this piece. It'd terribly important, and terribly timely...Brian G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/15369514158451008463noreply@blogger.com